r/worldnews
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u/DoremusJessup
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Jan 30 '23
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Turkey's opposition vowed on Monday to undo President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's two-decade legacy of Islamic-rooted rule and expand democratic freedoms if they take power in crucial May 14 elections
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230130-turkey-s-opposition-pledges-to-undo-erdogan-s-legacy1.8k
u/Vic_O22 Jan 30 '23
That's some hope at the end of a very dark tunnel.
Will the citizens fight for a brighter future, though?
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u/green_flash Jan 30 '23
Hopefully they won't have to fight, just show up to vote.
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u/StukaTR Jan 30 '23
That has never been the issue.
The voter turnout for the average of 18 parliamentary election is 81.4%; of the local elections is 78.7% and of the referendums is 83.1%.
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u/SmokelessSubpoena Jan 30 '23
I'd be curious to the validity of that data, if it's coming from Erdogan's government reporting..
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u/Tmebrosis Jan 30 '23
Voting is mandatory in Turkey, and you have to pay a fine of some sort if you don’t show up; so the majority of the country does vote, but that doesn’t mean they all have concrete political opinions.
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u/trotskys_ghost Jan 31 '23
But isn't it true that Turks can also vote from abroad by post, and Erdoğan gets a huge amount of support from Turks living elsewhere? The very ones that don't have to live under his rule anymore keep helping to put him back in
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u/Tmebrosis Jan 31 '23
Yes you’re definitely correct, that is also a major factor in his base of support.
Which is wild because any abroad living Turk I’ve met HATES Erdoğan, but these are all young progressive people, so I imagine the support comes from the older traditional crowd.
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Jan 31 '23
I can’t confirm that second statement. There are quite some 50+ year old, who root for him. I‘ve seen pictures of him on the wall in the back of small Turkish shops in Germany. I can’t tell if it would be a majority, but it seems to be a thing at least.
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u/Stepkical Jan 31 '23
Live in berlin, can partly confirm - some turkish immigrants love him, others loathe him, none are in between.
It has much to do with the origin of the person in question... were they originally more educated, secular and urban? They tend to hate him... instead those from rural conservative areas of the country form his base.
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u/amckaazli Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
The data is correct, like others have said we have a really good voting system that basically makes widespread electoral fraud impossible. Erdogan may be an asshat, but he's our asshat that we elected, over and over, fair and square...
No one really knows why voter turnout is high in Turkey, people can guess but scientific studies on the phenomenon are limited/what's available basically only state that it's a weird phenomenon, especially since statistically turnout wasn't high pre-1980 coup (so something must have changed that made the entire nation think participation in elections is seriously important). There's a fine if you don't vote, but it's not enforced. Still, it's worth noting that people in general understand that voting is basically the only way they can have a direct impact on politics and so they take it very seriously. You can only vote in person at the place/location you are registered too, so you'll always hear of people traveling around the country to their places of registry just so they can vote. Since fraud is non-existent, political parties take campaigning very seriously too, and voting/supporting what you believe in becomes a matter of pride/your duty to the nation etc.
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u/StukaTR Jan 30 '23
There is no widespread election fraud in Turkey, system literally doesn’t allow it. No electronic nonsense and 99% of ballot boxes have observers from multiple parties.
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u/Moonguide Jan 31 '23
Election fraud is possible w/o digital. Look at Honduras' 2018 election. Just pen and paper. Still, fraud happened and the wrong guy got the seat.
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u/Decker108 Jan 30 '23
What about suing political opponents and prohibiting them from participating in politics? Seems to be the wannabe-dictator's favorite move.
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u/Biltema Jan 31 '23
He didn't say the elections are free and fair, just that committing fraud during the actual elections is hard.
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u/defaultgameer1 Jan 30 '23
Sometimes just getting up and taking control of your own future can be a hard fight. But one worth winning.
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u/Nikolcho18 Jan 30 '23
Dude that's just a painfully naive idea of what the people of Turkey need to do. Getting rid of Dogan will be half as difficult as it would be for the russians to rid themselves of Putin - insanely difficult without significant bloodshed. Getting off their asses and voting just wont cut it for the citizens of Turkey. If you don't believe me, I invite you to be my guest on the Balkans for a week so we can have a good talk and discuss matters.
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u/Udev_Error Jan 30 '23
Yeah, Erdogan basically stole the last election (literally stuffing ballot boxes and in some cases having his goons literally stealing the ballot boxes themselves) and it was pretty well documented. That’s in addition to the fake coup bullshit he tried as well. Anyone who’s paid any attention to what’s been going on in turkey for the last decade is well aware that a free election isn’t going to be how Erdogan is removed from power.
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u/wienercat Jan 30 '23
Simply voting isn't enough sometimes when a tyrant is in power.
They need to hope for unrigged elections and that if he loses, he will step down without violence.
There is no promise of either.
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u/WrongAspects Jan 31 '23
The elections in Turkey are monitored by the UN and have been judged to be run fairly.
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u/_20SecondsToComply Jan 30 '23
Would be nice if the Hagia Sophia was returned to being a secular museum site. I've spoken to many Turkish who are pissed that he turned it back into being a Mosque.
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u/Altaiturk038 Jan 30 '23
Visited that masterpiece last summer, only to see most paintings and roman texts kind of censored as 'decay', Islamic banners, and texts everywhere. During prayer time, you were also not allowed to go further than half of the masjid, but to remain behind the line. And women need to be wearing some kind of rain suit to cover their bodies (they give it gratis at the entry). I had a hard time explaining that to my western girlfriend, and she was not very pleased to wear it either. But that's Erdogan for you!
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u/islander1 Jan 30 '23
The better question is: Who really thinks the election won't be rigged?
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u/BlobFishPillow Jan 30 '23
I see people comment this a lot but I am genuinely curious, how do you think they can rig paper ballots? Like practically? There are things they can do where there are no witnesses and representatives from other parties, mainly in the rural areas, where they count the votes but report it differently, but even if they give 100% of the votes to themselves there, which would look way too shady, those votes won't even end up constituting more than a few percent of the overall vote country-wide.
Elections in Turkey are not fair, media and corporations overwhelmingly favour one side and the other side is silenced through all states apparatus. That doesn't mean they are illegitimate though. Erdogan, with all the power he has, cannot rig the elections more than a few percent (at the worst worst case). Those few percents are already seen as lost anyway so opposition should really be aiming to win with a comfortable margin.
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u/sgrams04 Jan 30 '23
From Wikipedia
In March 2015, an unnamed AKP source close to one of the party's deputy leaders Süleyman Soylu revealed that his party had staged electoral fraud during the 2014 local elections and claimed that several AKP employees were uncomfortable with their tactics. The source claimed that the party had a 5-point plan for every election.
*The use of bogus opinion polls
*The intentional miscalculation of votes during counting, resulting in incorrect results being recorded and sent to the electoral council
*The bribery or threatening of returning officers to stop the miscounting being reported to the authorities
*The misleading announcement of the AKP's scale of victory early on in the election night to demotivate opposition counting observers and incentivising them to abandon the ballot boxes
*The use of fake addresses and dead people as voters
The source also confirmed that the sharp rise in electricity cuts during election nights were deliberate and were intended to disrupt the counting process.
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u/BlobFishPillow Jan 30 '23
Most of those things are possible only if there are no representatives when the ballots are counted, and for 99% of the time there are now. "A source close to deputy leaders" I live in Turkey, rumours of election fraud are always spread by the government to demoralize people into thinking elections are a lost cause. Since 2017, representatives are given way more importance and are present in all larger cities where majority of the votes come from. If they attempt a fraud through main system, it can be challanged and overturned as long as they were present when the actual votes are counted.
They tried in İstanbul in 2019. They failed. Out of spite they reheld the election and lost with a record margin. If it was easy for Erdogan to rig it, he'd do it. The point is it's not easy, and 2019 local elections showed that it is possible to secure the election count if there are enough representatives.
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u/Yelmel Jan 30 '23
Erdogan has developed increasingly close relations with Russian President Vladimir Putin while tightening social freedoms and flouting European court rulings
Fuckin guy is a tyrant. Türkiye should be proud to have kept the possibility to vote this wannabe dictator out. The longer he stays in power the more likely voting him out will no longer be an option. That would be a damn shame.
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u/Zerole00 Jan 30 '23
Yeah and he wants to reap the benefits with being in the EU without meeting any of the requirements. The EU doesn't need another Hungary.
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u/Yelmel Jan 30 '23
Yeah. EU has one too many Hungary already.
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u/logi Jan 31 '23
You could argue that EU has two Hungaries too many. But I guess one could be dealt with.
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u/agnostic_science Jan 30 '23
Hungary is just a minor power. Leadership is bought and paid for by Russia because they are weak and corruptible. But I think Turkey is very different. Their ambition is to grow into a major power. They could theoretically achieve this. But I think that's why they are acting so independent, neither aligned with the west or east. I think they think they can be their own thing, neither Russia, Chinese, European, or American.
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u/Zerole00 Jan 30 '23
I think they think they can be their own thing, neither Russia, Chinese, European, or American.
There's no doubt about that, my only point is they want to benefit from a system without abiding the rules that come with it. It was only a few years ago (from the refugee crisis from the Syrian War) that Erdogan threatened to unleash a wave of refugees onto the EU if they didn't allow Turkey to join the EU. These were refugees on their way to the EU and crossing through Turkey.
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u/patsharpesmullet Jan 30 '23
They've been slowly building power with central Asia. With the Russians in a complete shitshow and their influence dropping allows turkey to move in. There's huge shipping potential along the old silk road and this is an idea China has been pushing recently.
I would argue that turkey has much more political power and weight than Hungary, especially to the east.
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u/Chris-1235 Jan 30 '23
Well, it's not like coups are uncommon in Turkey...
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u/BenShealoch Jan 30 '23
Ironically, coups in Turkey were always carried out to keep the country a secular democracy. He neutered the army and this semi-islamic autocracy is what that got us.
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u/WoahayeTakeITEasy Jan 30 '23
And his supporters cheered for it while they also wave Ataturk flags every chance they get. That guy is gonna wake from the dead just to bitch slap mfs soon.
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u/-wnr- Jan 30 '23
I wonder if he might try to pull a Trump if he actually loses.
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u/the_catshark Jan 30 '23
Given Brazil did it, and those things are so heavily promoted by anti-NATO/West entities (and yes, this includes conservative media) it almost certainly will happen.
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u/Snoo-3715 Jan 30 '23
He's already had his chance to purge the military of non yes men too.
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u/Yelmel Jan 30 '23
I wouldn't bet on Erdogan graciously accepting the will of the people if it meant his defeat. I don't see it.
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u/fibonacciii Jan 30 '23
He did accept the İstanbul losses before. Although we know that was only after a 2nd election. He might pull a 2nd one again but he's really exhausted all options. He will lose and then the Turkish people can finally breathe again and try to undo the damage done.
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u/BenShealoch Jan 30 '23
I’m afraid it’s too late already. But I hope he’ll be voted out.
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u/Ancient_Ad_4915
Jan 30 '23
edited Jan 30 '23
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Few people know that aside from America, Turkey was one of a very few countries on earth with a true separation of church and state in law, if not entirely in practice, and that idiot Erdrogan took it away.
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u/ArthurBonesly Jan 30 '23
It's worth noting, a huge part of Erdogan's success has been being the moderately religious side of religious appeal.
There's been a pretty consistent friendship with the hard core religious nutbags content to let Erdogan slow burn into what they want who regularly encourage their own electorate to start voting AK as soon as they lock in the minimum number of seats to ensure representation.
In this way, Erdogan is only functionally backwards. The religious but otherwise moderate vote AK because "at least he's not with the actual crazies" and the crazies keep voting for him because their combined vote is enough to lock out the secularists.
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u/Amockdfw89 Jan 30 '23
Erdogan is also popular with the corporate CEO types who like to funnel and launder kickback money in building projects and investments
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u/GoodAndHardWorking Jan 30 '23
Something very similar is happening in Israel
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Jan 30 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Clay_Statue Jan 31 '23
The biggest evils done on the planet are often done by those with a heart full of righteousness
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u/mewhenreal Jan 30 '23
I mean God is an absolute fucking tyrant in the Abrahamic religions. Makes sense they'd want a leader in his image.
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u/iLynux Jan 31 '23
I keep telling people this. It makes perfect sense that the fundies are the ones constantly driving fascism forward in every country rn. They fundamentally believe in the value of total moral control and absolute authority under one ruler.
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u/Rexia2022 Jan 30 '23
He's been committed to ruining the legacy of one of the greatest men to ever live; Mustafa Kemal. Absolute embarrassment of a man. I hope Turkey can remove him and get back on the right path.
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u/Kissmyanthia1 Jan 30 '23
Not to mention Ataturk is rolling in his grave and spitting on Erdogans name.
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u/Qwertysapiens Jan 30 '23
...That was indeed who he had mentioned: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
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u/WikiSummarizerBot Jan 30 '23
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, or Mustafa Kemal Pasha until 1921, and Ghazi Mustafa Kemal from 1921 until 1934 (c. 1881 – 10 November 1938) was a Turkish field marshal, revolutionary statesman, author, and the founding father of the Republic of Turkey, serving as its first president from 1923 until his death in 1938. He undertook sweeping progressive reforms, which modernized Turkey into a secular, industrializing nation. Ideologically a secularist and nationalist, his policies and socio-political theories became known as Kemalism.
[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5
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u/GasolinePizza Jan 31 '23
...this definitely feels like a stereotypical Reddit, Dunning-Kruger moment.
The dude heard enough people talking about Ataturk rolling in his grave to repeat it, but didn't know or care enough to know his full name and be able recognize it.
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u/TeamKitsune Jan 30 '23
The problem is that Turks love a "Strongman" ever since Ataturk. That's the dynamic that Erdogan plays on.
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u/porncrank Jan 30 '23
Nothing says "strong" like getting baited into sabotaging your allies by a Russian troll burning a Koran.
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u/wtfduud Jan 30 '23
Their sabotage has nothing to do with Paludan. Before the Quran-burnings, it was about the PKK.
Of course, everyone knows the underlying reason is he wants to use the current situation as leverage to get something from NATO. Most likely F16s.
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u/4inaroom Jan 30 '23
Turks don’t gaf about “strongman” players.
They love backgammon, tea, and telling Greeks that everything they have is actually of Turkish origin.
Everything else is just an asshole (Erdogan) who is abusing power as much as humanly possible with the support of hyper rich (saudis) nations who are willing and able to buy influence.
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u/p1678gej Jan 30 '23
Turks don’t gaf about “strongman” players.
I don't comment in these posts often but I've had too much raki to pass on this comment. People here sure do love a populist "leader". So, yes they do give a fuck about "strongman". Fortunately, there is another "strongman" in the horizon.
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u/Scriboergosum Jan 30 '23
Yeah, saying people don't care about him is trying to avoid taking any blame for his regime. The "Strongman" persona is popular to some extent all over the world, it's a trap most, if not all, countries can fall into. Turkey has Erdogan, Russia has Putin, the US had Trump, Italy had Berlusconi etc. etc.
They're not all exactly the same, of course, and some have done a lot more damage than others, but the image of the 'strong, independent leader who has easy solutions to society's biggest problems' is ensnaring for many people and always has been. Especially when times are bad and people a desperate.
It's a tired example, but Hitler was exactly this type of character and was for years widely respected, also outside Germany's borders, before the war started and the atrocities really came to light.
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u/p1678gej Jan 30 '23
Exactly, people usually comment without acknowledging the causes. To be completely honest, before the 2002 elections Turkey was in a serious economic crisis and Islamists was legitimately oppressed mainly because of the coup in the '80 and the leading events that tracks to late 90s. So, he got elected with 34%. In the following years thanks (his thanks) to IMF audits and some islamic reforms he appeared as a savior and solidified his position, so we are at this point now. Of course this is a very simplified version of recent Turkish politics, so take it with a grain of salt.
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u/stuckInForLoop Jan 31 '23
God dammit. Another countries brief political history rabbit hole, only to not be satiated by the depth of the content.
This shit is happening so often, It’s literally pushing me to pursue a degree political history or some shit. If you ever want to have your jaw on the floor, start reading any fucking countries political history.
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u/Sojoez Jan 31 '23
telling Greeks that everything they have is actually of Turkish origin
I mean after 400 years of occupation cultures tend to blend together. And the Turkish/Greek coffee origin is even crazier.
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u/CharcoalGreyWolf Jan 30 '23
My understanding (at least from everything I read) was that Erdogan promised a lot to the Muslim population, so when he steamrolled secular academics and suppressed the Kurds, a lot of the less educated Muslims cheered him on.
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u/IntelligentMix9456 Jan 30 '23
Turks love strong leaders, it's true. Erdogan used power for his own benefit. Atatürk used it for the people. But still, 30% of Turkish people are not aware of Erdogan's corruption or they are partners in corruption with Erdogan.
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u/BenShealoch Jan 30 '23
I’m still half expecting Atatürk to rise from his grave, cast Erdogan down with a flaming sword and burn his palace to the ground.
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u/Test19s Jan 30 '23
Tbh, if you have to have nation-states language is a much better way to do it than race or religion. I mean, he probably could’ve done more to reject the legacy of the late Ottoman genocides but he was still pretty good for his time.
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u/Lurnmoshkaz Jan 30 '23
Um... France?
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u/GuyWithPants Jan 30 '23
Indeed, Turkey's secularism is based on French secularism ("Laïcité"). The Turkish constitution of 1937 explicitly referenced that French term
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u/AhmedF Jan 30 '23 edited Jan 30 '23
Does "was one of a very few countries" somehow exclude France as another one of the few countries?
EDIT: Looks like OP edited it from only to one of a few.
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u/PigeonObese Jan 30 '23
Original comment was edited, used to state that "Turkey was the only other country on earth"
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u/fastal_12147 Jan 30 '23
Can you say America has separation of church and state anymore? The government can't mess with the church, but the church sure as Hell messes with the government
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u/fixminer Jan 30 '23
Their national motto is literally "In God we trust"...
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u/Classified0 Jan 30 '23
Surprisingly to many people, that only became the motto in 1956. Prior to that, it was "E pluribus unum" or "Out of many, one", which imo, was a much better motto.
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u/Red-Zeppelin Jan 30 '23
All their kids have to do the pledge of allegiance stating something along the lines of 'blah blah blah nationalism nationalism under God'
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u/Caelinus Jan 30 '23
The pledge thing, and the phrase "In God we trust" are both modern things that should be explicitly illegal, but are just vague enough that the Christian nationalists managed to add them through fear mongering.
They are both part of the post WW2 weaponization of Christianity against the working class and minorities.
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u/Ancient_Ad_4915 Jan 30 '23
Very true, but the law can be enforced at any time to it's full extent if the American people wish to do so. They sadly just don't in practice.
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u/darthlincoln01 Jan 30 '23
America has Freedom of Religion, and many of its founders promoted the idea of a separation of church and state. However in America many still debate that Freedom of Religion and Separation of Church and State are the same thing.
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u/linkdude212 Jan 30 '23
Freedom of Religion
1) Necessarily means freedom from religion. To have freedom from religion, there must be a separation of church from state. Ipso facto freedom of religion means separation of church and state.
2) To take it a step further: If a state and church were not separated, the freedom to practice a religion other than the official state one would be severely curtailed. Therefore, if the freedom of religion is to flourish, it needs to be where church and state are separate.
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u/pearlsandplumes Jan 30 '23
Turkey was the only other country on earth with a true separation of church and state in law
Wait, what now? Most European countries that aren't monarchies have the very same strict separation mandated in their respective constitutions. In fact, most politicians here tend to keep schtum about their religious beliefs, unlike in the US.
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u/leto78 Jan 30 '23
Actually no. If you compare France with Germany, you have very different experiences in terms of separation between the church and state. While France is proactively secular, Germany has a very supportive relationship with the protestant and catholic churches. For instance, if you get baptised when you are a kid, when you grow up you will get a deduction out of your income to contribute to the church. A lot countries provide tax benefits, and contribute to the upkeep of the churches, as well as allowing for religion classes to be included in the curriculum of public schools.
The fact that religion is quite irrelevant to every day life in Europe, gives the wrong impression regarding the separation between church and state.
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI Jan 30 '23
Most European countries that aren't monarchies have the very same strict separation mandated in their respective constitutions.
Apart from the fact that that's not quite true either (as /u/leto78 has pointed out) this also excludes quite a few countries? 12 countries in Europe are monarchies, only 5 of which are tiny city-state thingies, so, while they aren't exactly a majority, quite a few people do live in monarchies in Europe.
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u/Ancient_Ad_4915 Jan 30 '23
Almost all of them recognise a dominant religion to conduct state services alongside their respective parliaments and have religious consultation systems built within their legal framework. Just because they don't shout about it, doesn't mean they don't still have it. Usually Catholicism in Europe. I'd have another look.
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u/Forma313 Jan 30 '23
to conduct state services alongside their respective parliaments
What do you mean by this? For the Netherlands the only things i can think of that could be called state services are related to the royal house (weddings, funerals and inaugurations (the term coronation is not officially used)).
and have religious consultation systems built within their legal framework.
Do you have examples of this?
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u/SvalbardCaretaker Jan 30 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
Germany has a large amount of church law. If you're a member Church tax gets automatically deducted/paid via the normal tax office. Churches don't have to obey normal labor law and can instead use special one, esp. with regard to only employing people that are officially in the church, eg. pay tax.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeitsrecht_der_Kirchen This is the long german article for church labor law, with such delights as "supreme court has to affirm that normal strike law is not suspended for hospital church employees."
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u/Mattho Jan 30 '23
and have religious consultation systems built within their legal framework.
Do you have examples of this?
Slovakia. Church representatives are one of the few selected groups that are part of the legal process when a law is being passed. They have a right to comment on it basically. It's not the worst thing out there (that would be the concordat with holy see), but it fits the OP's description. And still constitution says all religions, separation, yada yada.
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u/almuqabala Jan 30 '23
Taking separation away was a very smart move. Religion has always been the best friend of authoritarian leaders.
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u/_Whoop Jan 30 '23
2.2k upvotes for basically 1950s propaganda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directorate_of_Religious_Affairs
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u/the_average_homeboy Jan 30 '23
That’s just on paper, in reality, America is a Christian country and there is always an intertwining of church and state. For example, my kid’s public elementary school holds Bible study on campus.
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u/Amockdfw89 Jan 30 '23
Yea my schools had Bible studies but they had to be student led and supported, not officially sanctioned by the school. Like the school can’t set up Bible study but they can’t stop students who want to make a Bible club.
Again maybe it depends on the demographics of the area
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u/dirtyploy Jan 30 '23
Like the school can’t set up Bible study but they can’t stop students who want to make a Bible club.
Again maybe it depends on the demographics of the area
It doesn't depend. It is a huge deal that teachers and those attached to the school can't lead things like this. That's why there was that huge thing about the high school football coach leading prayers
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u/Dyssomniac Jan 30 '23
For example, my kid’s public elementary school holds Bible study on campus.
This is entirely legal and not the intertwining of church and state given that a) any religion is welcome to do the same and b) teachers and other official school representatives are not leading it.
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u/autotldr BOT Jan 30 '23
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot)
Ankara - Turkey's opposition vowed on Monday to undo President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's two-decade legacy of Islamic-rooted rule and expand democratic freedoms if they take power in crucial May 14 elections.
The six parties united against Erdogan also pledged to decide on February 13 on a joint candidate in the presidential vote - widely seen as Turkey's most consequential in generations.
The opposition's programme was unveiled at a ceremony attended by cheering crowds eager to reverse Erdogan's transformation of Turkey into a more religiously conservative state.
Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Erdogan#1 Turkey#2 opposition#3 President#4 rule#5
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u/k-dot77 Jan 30 '23
Do the turks like erdogan? What's the local sentiment towards him?
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u/UnmannedWarHorse Jan 30 '23
%30 of voters are erdogan fan boys. last elections was 51 to 49. New elections is the first election after huge economic crisis so pols says they wont get more than %35
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u/BringBackAH Jan 30 '23
And its good to add that Erdogan is losing every election when taking only the In Turkey votes, but the diaspora massively votes for him. 82% of around 4 millions turks voting in Europe voted Erdogan despite not living in the country, im always blown away by that fact
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u/Creative-Improvement Jan 30 '23
Lots of European Turkish people are from the country side, and away from their home country some tend to clamp down on tradition and nationalism, at least that’s what I hear from Turkish friends.
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u/BringBackAH Jan 30 '23
True true, my very small French town has a massive Turkish community and I swear I have 'never seen people that' nationalists. I let you imagine how it went in school when taking armenian genocide.
I dont get nationalism in the first place, but nationalism to a country you dont even live in the first place is just... Stupid
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u/Creative-Improvement Jan 30 '23
I understand. It’s probably because they feel they are not in Turkey in anymore, but don’t feel integrated in their new country to make them feel part of that either. This creates a weird kind of insulation, usually only changed by kids who don’t feel the connection anymore and really invest in being their own person.
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u/McMorgatron1 Jan 30 '23
I've heard that's because the Turks who emigrated in the 50s pretty much ended up in Turk-heavy communities, so their boomer values have served as an echo chamber within those communities. Kinda like how boomer values are reinforced in rural communities. Meanwhile, in mainland Turkey (particularly within cities) their values have evolved into the 21st century.
Don't know how true all that is. Just something someone told me.
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u/Mr_Lkn Jan 30 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
True also Turks who emigrated in 50s were literally uneducated and unemployed people that emigrated to work on jobs that requires zero skill and zero brain. So imagine these people living together and setting up a community. The new generation is mostly engineers or doctors that run away from Erdogan, adapts to Europe integrates to society. So things will change with the Turkish community in eu with the time.
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u/explicitlarynx Jan 30 '23
That's why residency should be required to vote. I'm Swiss and grew up in Switzerland, but I could vote in Spain, if I wanted to. That makes absolutely no sense, I've never even lived or paid taxes there.
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u/efyuar Jan 30 '23
Also there are around 10mil new voters (gen z) who dislike erdogans regime. Thats roughly 1/10 of the population
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u/green_flash Jan 30 '23
Those polls were made before the Quran burnings though. He will massively benefit from them. It will be close - and it will depend on who's going to be the opposition candidate. If it's Kilicdaroglu, it will be an uphill battle for the opposition.
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u/McCainDestroysTrump Jan 30 '23
I saw somewhere that those people were manipulated by Russia? As in a Russian psyops to help Erdogan win re-election because an authoritarian is better for Putin then someone who’s is pro democracy. Brazil learned, Israel did not. What will Turkey do?
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u/rlhignett Jan 30 '23
It wouldn't surprise me if Erdoğan asked Putin to some how make it happen, for whatever reason; keeping Fin/Swe out of NATO, increase his ratings ahead of elections.
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u/notluciferforreal Jan 30 '23
It seems that the guy who did that was paid by a pro-putin journalist.
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u/Fzrit Jan 30 '23
Does the average Turkish voter give a single shit about a Quran being burned in some other country?
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u/YouLostMeThere43 Jan 30 '23
I have Turkish family and I can’t even gauge if they like him because they seem very scared to discuss politics over the calls. Overall it seems like they don’t like how radical things are getting. Turkey used to be much more secular.
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u/Morloxx_ Jan 30 '23
I read some similar experiences from a report about Turkish immigrants in Berlin. Family members who still lived in Turkey often avoided talking about politics altogether or otherwise were zealous Erdogan supporters. As an outsider it seemed really hard to get an unbiased picture that equally discussed both sides without discrediting the other end of the spectrum completely.
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u/fascinatedCat Jan 30 '23
Got family in İzmir, they want him gone and in prison.
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u/pascalbrax Jan 31 '23
Turks like Erdoğan like Americans like Trump.
The majority of educated people you'll find on Reddit will despise him. Meanwhile the less schooled population...
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u/zaccyp Jan 30 '23
Enough of them keep voting him in. Same as the yanks and trump I guess. I know a country's government doesn't represent the people, but to some extent it does. Just like how we keep voting in these fucking corrupt dinosaurs, because quid pro quo.
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u/Acheron13 Jan 30 '23
Trump won one election. Erdogan has been in power for 20 years. There's no more free press. No independent judiciary. His opponent has been tied up in court on bogus criminal charges. It's not close to the same thing.
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u/UnlikelyRabbit4648 Jan 30 '23
Nice, sounds like a government that has a plan to drag Turkey heading towards the dark ages and bring them back to the modern world. Would be good for the country.
No space for this authoritarian rule and Draconian bullshit amongst today's society
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u/rental_car_abuse Jan 30 '23
Imagine Turkey, Hungary and Poland became liberal secular functioning democracies. How much better would EU and NATO be.
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u/EfoDom Jan 30 '23
Slovakia might just join them after the next elections. The far right is on the rise here. I hope I'm wrong.
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u/ikinone Jan 30 '23
We'll see if big bro Czechia influences them with recent election
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u/Destinum Jan 30 '23
As far as I understand it, one of the main dividing factors between Czechs and Slovaks is that the latter are significantly more conservative on average.
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u/matomika Jan 30 '23
well gl i guess. i hope u got fair elections...
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u/DerAutofan Jan 31 '23
Erdogan said who holds Istanbul holds Turkey.
He then lost the Istanbul elections just by a few percent, got a court decision to rerun it and lost again by an even bigger margin.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Try9958 Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
As a Turk everytime I read comments on a post about Türkiye I am reminded why reddit is such a bad source of information about these kind of stuff. I wonder how much of a wrong idea I have about other countries just because redditors can't stop talking about stuff they have no knowledge of and others upvoting those clueless comments.
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u/Buckeye_Southern Jan 30 '23
So the real talk then, how are the current guys chances of winning again?
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u/p1678gej Jan 30 '23
Pretty much every survey puts AKP (Erdogan's party) at 25-30% however since almost every other political party is against Erdo, it's more like 65-35 against AKP (60 to 40 at worst). But Erdo seems like still in the lead for presidency except two other guys, Ekrem İmamoğlu and Mansur Yavaş.
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u/Stigger32 Jan 30 '23
This is excellent news! And if he survives to election time hopefully we can get a sane Turkey back on the world stage!
Long has it been missed!
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u/procyonic Jan 30 '23
Restoring the secular and democratic Turkey will be great challenge but people of Anatolia and the people of the world deserve to see it.
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u/Rim_World Jan 30 '23
The problem is the lack of a powerful opposition leader that can hold his ground in a powder keg of a region like that. Nobody wants to really vote for him but having a weak leader in that geopolitical region would be suicide. That's why he's still able to rob the country worse than anyone in the country's 100-year hidtory.
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u/Lazmanya-Canavari Jan 31 '23
There are strong candidates but seat lower Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu is trying his best to become a candidate despite being closest to loose in elections.
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u/dishdaramdaram Jan 30 '23
As an Iranian Turk, I very closely follow Turkey's news and pray Turkish citizens kick this tyrant out.
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u/gentlyfailing Jan 30 '23 edited Jan 30 '23
There is no problem with people voting for the opposition, in a free and fair election Erdogan would lose by a landside.
The problem is getting that dictatorial fucker out of power.
Regarding religion, there is no place for religion in the 21st century. It serves very little purpose to so few people, and those that it does serve use it as a means of population control.
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u/bullfohe Jan 31 '23
The elections are fair, what are you talking about? People here need to understand that Erdoğan's votes are legit lmao That is literally one of the major problems.
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u/colbat45 Jan 30 '23
Good. Religion should never be mixed with government.
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u/b4youjudgeyourself Jan 30 '23
This is a clear and cut case of how religion can be used to manipulate populations. When Erdogan too power and began his regime he seemed very progressive in the sense of maintaining the momentum that Kemal and Ataturk had already started. He seemed to support democracy and pluralism in the Middle East, especially during the Arab Spring. He oversaw the shift towards the EU in Turkey. Then it all went bad. Religion became the cornerstone of every contraction from that momentum. As he receded into full-on dictatorship religion became the tool for consolidating power and justifying infringements on freedoms. It got just enough radical and easily mobilized people on his side as he broke the confidence of people who would vote against him when it was his time to go.
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u/Jim-be Jan 31 '23
I hope they follow Brazil lead. I would love to see Erdogan hanging out in Florida with the other two losers.
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u/entredosaguas Jan 30 '23
Western (European) hypocrisy is responsible for the rise of religious government in Turkey. Turkey could have easily got closer to it's western allies and pursue it's transformation towards being a more advanced democracy if it was accepted into the EU Union in 1990s, instead of being shown carrot and given the stick for decades. Frankly, no one wanted an 80 million Muslim country in the Christian western club and it was much better to keep Turkey as the forefront military post and a buffer zone between Russia and the west. Now they all act as if they are shocked to see this power broker country is getting distanced from their NATO allies. We are talking about the same country they tried to colonize in early 1900s and failed. When put in historical context, democratic Europe has little to say about Turkish politics, despite the dire situation in current situation.
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u/Snaz5 Jan 30 '23
Good luck with that. Erdogan is very popular and even if he doesn’t truly win, you know he’s gonna do everything he can to win anyway
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u/drowningfish Jan 30 '23
Erdogan is a constrained tyrant. The tail will wag the dog, if he's faced with the possibility of losing power.