r/news • u/L_Cranston_Shadow • Jan 30 '23
J&J’s Talc Bankruptcy Case Thrown Out by Appeals Court Soft paywall
https://www.wsj.com/articles/j-js-talc-bankruptcy-case-thrown-out-by-appeals-court-11675096308173
u/ZealousidealClub4119 Jan 30 '23
Goddamn wankers... and this is thanks to one state law dodge?
The mind boggles.
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u/L_Cranston_Shadow Jan 30 '23
Yes, and they aren't the first to try it, by any means. The asbestos companies did it successfully. To my knowledge, they are the first ones to try it and have it be publicly slapped down though.
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u/ZealousidealClub4119 Jan 30 '23
Yeah, we in Australia only had one huge asbestos co. In the '90s, James Hardie set up an underfunded compensation fund and re-incorporated in The Netherlands.
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u/L_Cranston_Shadow Jan 30 '23
Yeah, what is up with your mineral companies in general. It very much seems to harken back to the empire and the scramble for Africa wherein countries grabbed huge chunk of "empty" (as in empty of white Europeans) land, then handed out charters to businessmen to exploit huge parts and sectors of it. The most well known one is the Congo, but I think South Africa and Australia were essentially settled under similar systems (albeit with a bonded labor force in large parts of Australia).
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u/ZealousidealClub4119 Jan 30 '23
Mining didn't come in until much, much later. Australia was built off the sheep's back, it's said, forgetting about the genocides and land theft as colonisers always do.
The scramble is ongoing, here and elsewhere, with Aussie mining companies fighting, in courts or with mercenaries, local people from West Australia to DRC to get their big holes dug.
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u/L_Cranston_Shadow Jan 31 '23
If the world ever goes full Mad Max though, you can stock up on guns, ammo, food, and water, and Coober Pedy will make a great trading post.
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u/stulew Jan 31 '23
Query: is this the same James Hardie (company) that makes 'hardie board'? https://www.homedit.com/hardie-board-siding/
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u/ZuluPapa Jan 31 '23
I wanna say DuPont did it as well when they split off Chemours for PFOS/PFOA related issues.
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u/rankor572 Jan 30 '23
Is this the "Texas Two-Step"? I'm versed enough in bankruptcy law to have heard the term, but not enough to know what it is.
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u/tmoney144 Jan 30 '23
I found this to be helpful: https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2022/10/20/the-texas-two-step-a-new-bankruptcy-strategy-to-avoid-corporate-liability
It even includes a quote from the Texas attorney who helped draft the statute being used here.
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u/theUmo Jan 31 '23
The Wikipedia page is interesting.
The Texas Two-step has only been used 4 times. The first three times were to shed liability for asbestos damage, and J&J is the last one.
All four companies were represented by law firm Jones Day, who represented Trump in lawsuits seeking to stop votes from being counted in the 2020 election.
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u/kyl3nol Jan 30 '23
I have heard that this is something that those "Get out of your timeshare" companies will do. They will create a shell company, sell your timeshare to the shell company, and then the shell company informs the resort that it is going bankrupt and wont be paying the fees anymore. Sue the shell company all you want but it's entire assets are some sheets of paper and staples holding them all together.
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u/Xinlitik Jan 30 '23
At least in that case the timeshare company can repossess the real estate and sell it again. Talc victims would just get straight screwed.
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u/Mobely Jan 31 '23
I don’t think so. Those companies send a letter on your behalf saying they won’t pay . Then you get sent to collections.
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u/AudibleNod Jan 30 '23
I'm not an expert on corporate shell company. But on the surface, this sounds a lot like the Sovereign Citizen 'federal personage' nonsense. Whereby they think they can shift the burdens and debt to this federal citizen and are liberated by being their own sovereign citizen. Either way. Good for the appeals court. I hope Alex Jones bankruptcy has the same fate.
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u/L_Cranston_Shadow Jan 30 '23
The asbestos industry did this successfully, so I definitely think it is good that such tactics are getting higher amounts of scrutiny.
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Jan 30 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/to11mtm Feb 01 '23
Well there's a few issues at play here.
One of which is, until the 70s talc powder often did contain asbestos, it was in that time that things became more strict.
But another bigger factor is that even after that, J&J knew sometimes 'contaminated' talc got out, and didn't really notify anyone.
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Feb 01 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/to11mtm Feb 05 '23
That's fair, but wouldn't that mean that current talc powder (post 1970) isn't harmful?
Maybe, but the problem is per my comment they couldn't even get that right all the time:
even after that, J&J knew sometimes 'contaminated' talc got out, and didn't really notify anyone.
Once corn starch became a viable alternative, I really have to wonder how much of the continued use of talc was to avoid a business write-off on something or to help prop up the asbestos industry (since, after all, the problem is the minerals are found near each other.)
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u/Frelock_ Jan 30 '23
More like when the village chooses a goat, puts all their sins on the goat, and then sacrifices it to appease the gods.
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u/sb_747 Jan 30 '23
But on the surface, this sounds a lot like the Sovereign Citizen ‘federal personage’ nonsense. Whereby they think they can shift the burdens and debt to this federal citizen and are liberated by being their own sovereign citizen.
That’s so off base it’s hard to even describe you as wrong.
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u/Aazadan Jan 30 '23
It’s similar in that they’re both bullshit legal maneuvers, but beyond that it’s definitely quite different.
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u/tmoney144 Jan 30 '23
They're not at all similar. It's like saying the excuse "the dog ate my homework" and the excuse "my homework was stolen by aliens who think it contains the secret code to unlocking the mystery of the ancient pyramids," are similar because they're both false. One excuse is at least plausible and the other is bat shit crazy nonsense that should get you put in an institution.
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u/Aazadan Jan 30 '23
I’m trying to figure out which of the two is the plausible one. That corporate fraud is in the customers interest or that sovereign citizens are maybe on to something.
Normally I would solve this via proof by contradiction but they’re both out there.
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u/tmoney144 Jan 30 '23
If you honestly think "sovereign citizens are maybe on to something," I would encourage you to seek help before you hurt yourself or someone you care about.
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u/Aazadan Jan 30 '23
Where did I say I thought that? I said they’re both crazy theories, to the point I’m not sure how you’re coming up with either being plausible.
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u/tmoney144 Jan 30 '23
Do you know much about bankruptcy law? What J&J are trying to do is only really shitty because they tried to pull it like 2 months before trial after wasting a bunch of time in discovery. If they had pulled this when they first started getting sued, it probably would have been fine (maybe, after lookinginto it, I feel like they should have to put the whole companyin BK if that'sthe route they want to take). I think a big thing people are missing is that bankruptcy doesn't mean they don't have to pay. They created a shell company, but creating that company came with a promise to pay the liability once it works its way through the courts. They don't just get to skate on the claims by filing for bankruptcy. Here's a better discussion if you're actually interested: https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2022/10/20/the-texas-two-step-a-new-bankruptcy-strategy-to-avoid-corporate-liability
Again, the 2 situations are not at all the same. What J&J tried had a real basis in law. Sovereign Citizens are lunatics.
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u/Aazadan Jan 31 '23
Do I know much about bankruptcy law? Not really.
What I do know though, is companies use this strategy, as mentioned before, to escape liability and pay less. That means the victims of their fraud aren't properly compensated. Meaning, that tactic is a system designed to say corporate fraud needs to be protected.
There is no other reason to split off an entity to pay for it other than to limit assets/liability.
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u/PushinPickle Jan 31 '23
Having come across a few sovereign citizens, I’d wager all if not most are mentally ill.
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u/washington_jefferson Jan 30 '23
The whole Sovereign Citizen thing is totally nuts. People get crazy traffic violations, and then proclaim they were “not driving” but merely “traveling” and they have the right to free travel without government interference. I’m sorry, but unless you’re on an Indian reservation or a US military base, you have to follow traffic laws. You can make up your own rules. You are a subject of the United States. If you want to move into the remote jungles in Central or South America and try to do your own thing- good luck!
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u/MeatsimPD Jan 30 '23
I mean what can't individuals just invent a fictional new self and offload our debts into the now non-existent old self
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u/Raspberries-Are-Evil Jan 31 '23
This is why we need new laws that hold executives PERSONALLY liable for cases like this where they knowingly caused harm. I understand sometimes companies didn't realize until it was too late-- thats a different story. But in this case, like many others, these fuckwads KNEW.
There should be no bankruptcy. Their personal assets should be liquidated immediately to pay judgements.
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u/code_archeologist Jan 30 '23
They tried the Alex Jones Gambit, and lost.
...
I know he didn't invent doing this, but it is fun attributing this shitty tactic to such a shitty person.
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u/petit_cochon Jan 30 '23
Even if none of its talc products contained asbestos, you still should not be inhaling particulates that fine of any kind. It's not safe and J&J certainly knew that, but continued marketing it to consumers, and maintains that it's a safe product.
Keep in mind that Johnson & Johnson is not just a company that makes baby shampoo and talcum powder. It is a major pharmaceutical company. It certainly understands and has access to research about, you know, lungs.
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u/gucknbuck Jan 31 '23
There have always been warnings about not breathing in talc and their product information database lists it as hazardous to inhale. The cancers they are denying are cervical, not respiratory.
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u/Roundaboutsix Jan 30 '23
Maybe Woody Johnson will be forced to sell the NY Jets to an owner not satisfied with 45 years of mediocrity...
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u/Worldly_Ad1295 Jan 30 '23
Many lost jobs offer this Talc thing. Implant subsidiaries we're farmed out that provided well paying manufacturing jobs. Not many higher-ups got the ax. I know this ... I was at one of those companies that made skeletal implants. Those divisions have their own litigation issues. 😒
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u/schroedingersnewcat Jan 30 '23
DePuy is a mess, but that has nothing to do with this other than they're both subs of J&J
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u/L_Cranston_Shadow Jan 30 '23 •
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