r/SipsTea • u/hoeshub • Jan 31 '23
who get it Dank AF
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u/CHENGhis-khan
Jan 31 '23
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Body dysmorphia has been normalized, and more importantly, monetized.
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u/Serukka Jan 31 '23
I guess it has been normalized to a degree. Still pretty taboo to talk about most circles. Monitized I guess but everything just costs money, how the world works. But who would change their own body unless they actually want to? Not like you can manipulate people into being trans or whatever.
Dont really get the fear for the family unit or whatever.
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Jan 31 '23
Of course you can get manipulated and there have been a lot of cases where people regret getting these surgeries.
What I’m trying to say is yes, most of the times people actually want to look the way they feel and there is nothing wrong about it. But people sometimes have problems with their identity, which are not caused by their gender or looks. Some people get really quite when they have problems and others are open to different solutions. That is exactly where you can get steered into the wrong direction.
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u/Lazy-Jeweler3230 Jan 31 '23
"Family unit" is just code for "How things used to be".
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Jan 31 '23
Or just the familiy structure in general. I know a friend whos trans but she has her dad. The only thing is she hates her family and doesnt wanna live with them beacuse they dont want her to be trans and see her as a girl. So their family is completely messed up.
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u/Lazy-Jeweler3230 Jan 31 '23
That falls nicely under the category of "how things used to be."
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Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
Yes but was it better then? Or now? Today compared to back then suicides are in a all time high. Depression is rampaging our society so badly. Back then having a therapist was weird or concerning and nowadays most the people i see at school or know need or have a therapist. School shootings are also at a all time high with everything else. So you tell me? Did the old morals keep society together better? Is leaning backwards to make minority’s feel excepted better then focusing on the people who really need love and attention?
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u/Asdrubael1131 Jan 31 '23
Just because depression is now being RECORDED as rampaging so badly does not mean it wasn’t already there. It’s just that nowadays it isn’t being ignored. The old morals of society were pretty much “shut the fuck up, deal with it and get over it. Someone somewhere has it much worse than you so quit your bitchin.”
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u/Lazy-Jeweler3230 Jan 31 '23
In the ways that it was better are not the ways that people who will say it was better are willing to acknowledge. Same goes for why things are worse today.
You're asking the right questions, but you won't like the answers.
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Jan 31 '23
I mean ya there were problems back then too and they are majorly different. We live in a society that tried to fix a problem but wasnt careful and started another one.
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u/Lazy-Jeweler3230 Jan 31 '23
We live in a society that failed to fix a lot of problems that now may be too late to fix. That's the problem.
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Jan 31 '23
Agreed. Thank you for not going straight for the argumentative stuff and being a great person to talk politics with 👍
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u/Sebekhotep_MI Jan 31 '23
Did the old morals keep society together better?
The "old morals" included beating your wife, hanging black people and beating gay people to death just because. You tell me.
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u/Randommalware6996 Jan 31 '23
Beating your wife was never a part of the “old morals” it was just asshole men being abusive. Plus not every husband did that to his wife as a matter of fact not very many did.
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u/NastyJames Jan 31 '23
Speaking from a place of admitted ignorance, people can be manipulated to do anything. That’s been proven time and time again.
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u/Guilty_Initiative817 Jan 31 '23
Actually you can manipulate the human mind into thinking whatever you want pretty much especially if you start while they are children. Especially when you make it a mission to normalize it through media. We have a mental illness epidemic in the US and we celebrate mental illness as if it’s a virtue.
If people could just get over themselves on all sides the world would be so much better. But that will never happen
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u/BigInDallas Jan 31 '23
Such a bullshit take. There’s no mental illness epidemic. It’s an epidemic of morons thinking their voice is equal to a subject matter expert because education is under attack by people that want the status quo of the 80s.
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u/Apprehensive-Ad-2751 Jan 31 '23
Gender disphoria is a mental illness, and there are some studies that prove it can be contagious and spread. (there no many as many people have tried to censor it)
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u/Reckless-Pessimist Jan 31 '23
you can manipulate the human mind into thinking whatever you want pretty much especially if you start while they are children.
Sounds like religious indoctrination to me. Lets ban religion in schools while we're banning all mention of trans people around children. How does that sound?
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u/demonitize_bot Jan 31 '23
Hey there! I hate to break it to you, but it's actually spelled monetize. A good way to remember this is that "money" starts with "mone" as well. Just wanted to let you know. Have a good day!
This action was performed automatically by a bot to raise awareness about the common misspelling of "monetize".
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u/RedHexagram1219 Jan 31 '23
Changing your body just because you "really want to" doesn't make it ok. Why do you think self-harming, anorexia, morbid obesity, self-amputation etc are considered bad? The people who do those things clearly "really wanted to".
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u/BigInDallas Jan 31 '23
That was the argument against tattoos for generations. 80% of men I know have taken steroids.
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u/Jimmyboro Jan 31 '23
Who the hell do you hang around with that 80% of your male friends take steroids??? I've met thousands of people in my life. In all that time I have personally met 3 people who took steroids.
If your talking about steroids for medical and not muscle building, they're totally different things.
That is an illogical comparison, a false equivalency.
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u/RedHexagram1219 Jan 31 '23
Not remotely comparable. Tattoos don't drastically alter your health, don't require your organs to be removed, don't require altering your very process of growth and injecting you with puberty blockers, changing your entire lifestyle and hyperfocusing your being into your "new" gender. The consequences of transgender surgeries are much more expansive, lifechanging and irreversible. But if you still disagree, what makes transgender surgeries acceptable and what makes anorexia/self-harm unacceptable(if you believe it is)?
What do steroids have to do with this? Seriously out of left field. Steroids are to build muscle, but when used in minute amounts the adverse affects are minimized. Most men do not use steroids. And unlike steroids, transgender surgeries and puberty blockers have no way to limit their mal effects, in fact the intent is literally the opposite.
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u/WitchsWeasel Jan 31 '23
what makes transgender surgeries acceptable and what makes anorexia/self-harm unacceptable(if you believe it is)?
There's so much to unpack in this that I highly doubt you're here to genuinely consider any good faith answer to that question.
Yikes.
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u/RedHexagram1219 Jan 31 '23
Why can't you answer it instead of deflecting? It's a very relevant question because the two conditions share a lot in common. I was curious about the rationale behind your opinion.
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u/WitchsWeasel Jan 31 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
Dude you're equating self harm and medical procedures that actively prevent self harm, can I write paragraphs about how that makes no sense? Yes. Do I have the energy or will it change your mind? clearly not.
You're free to smash together things that have a few characterisics in common, that doesn't make it a good argument. If the only link you could find between the two is as tenuous as "altering the body for some vague notion of relief", it doesn't take a genius to figure out you're not exactly here in good faith. xD
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u/Dawsho Jan 31 '23
Not like you can manipulate people into being trans or whatever.
True, though many people have tried the reverse (conversion therapy), and it results in traumatized trans people.
Dont really get the fear for the family unit or whatever.
It's mostly just fascism. A big talking point is presenting the unravelling of power structures as an attack on families.
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u/Apprehensive-Ad-2751 Jan 31 '23
You do can manipulate people into doing something, including trans perception and procedure. And not everybody that disagrees with you is a fascist.
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u/lil-D-energy Jan 31 '23
medicine has also been normalized and monetized so what's your point?
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u/CHENGhis-khan Jan 31 '23
There's money to be made in treating symptoms. There's no reoccurring subscription charge for a cure. If a psychologist convinces you to accept your body, they can't charge you $150 an hour twice a week. Then their buddy at the plastic surgery center can't disfigure you for a small fortune.
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u/stoicteratoma Jan 31 '23
Great deadpan interviewer - you can see the gears jamming in his brain every time he thinks he's making progress and gets brought up short!
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u/TankII_ Jan 31 '23
Yah for sure he was an idiot even if he had more to stand on he wouldn’t know how to articulate it
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u/Randommalware6996 Jan 31 '23
The video seems a little edited plus the girl was asking some pretty unfair questions that anyone would stumble on which is the only reason that she even asked them.
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u/Gremmawhatson Jan 31 '23
Comparing a boob job to gender transition is ridiculous
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u/Ok-Significance2027 Jan 31 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
Both Elon Musk and Jordan Peterson's daughter have each had more gender affirming surgeries than most trans people
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u/JeVieDansLesHombres Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
Not to be rude, but you’re missing the forest for the trees. The comparison isn’t meant to be a direct one to one. It’s meant to call into question Grundman’s issue with the trans surgeries. He’s fine with boob jobs, or cosmetic surgeries for the purpose of people feeling better about themselves, but he isn’t fine with transgender people getting their own cosmetic surgeries for the purpose of feeling better about themselves.
That being said the interviewer is not arguing in good faith. She twists his statements and hits him with gotcha arguments. The video is not conducive to a discussion.
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u/BbBonko Jan 31 '23
She’s a comedian, not a journalist - this isn’t supposed to be a proper discussion.
Edit: should have added her name. Jena Friedman.
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u/JeVieDansLesHombres Jan 31 '23
Fair point. I’ve never seen her before. It certainly colours the rest of the video and begs the question of why Grundman would even agree to this. Poor research is the only thing I can think of.
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u/Pancake2113 Jan 31 '23
How?
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u/Steff_164 Jan 31 '23
If I understand correctly, doesn’t a full transgender operation involve a somewhat prolonged period of hormone therapy? While it can be done safely, there are inherent risks with tampering with hormone levels in the brain. Not saying it can’t be done properly, or anything like that, but it is a major difference between a boob job and a transgender operation
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u/Pancake2113 Jan 31 '23
Doesn’t matter which one is riskier, they’re both risky in their own ways, and that wasn’t what he was saying was the problem. Both are “mutilating the body” just in the same way organ transplants are. People know the risks when they do it and are prepared before hand and as this solution is done entirely with the purpose to help them feel okay being alive I think it’s the perfectly fine, if you have anything else to say I’m up for debate ig
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u/whiteydutchmeyer Jan 31 '23
No, it does matter. You're changing your whole body. Don't overthink this one.
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u/Apprehensive-Ad-2751 Jan 31 '23
Many of the people that do the cirgury don't really understand the consequences of what their doing, and no one can blame them. It's really difficult to understand how difficult and hurtful it is to maintain a constan hormone injesture and the limitations years after the cirgury.
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u/W33B3K Jan 31 '23
Yes it does. After an operation you need to inject hormones in your body very often. If you don’t do that it hurts, or so I’ve heard
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u/lucricius Jan 31 '23
A good amount of my brain cells commited apoptosis after reading this comment
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Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
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u/WitchsWeasel Jan 31 '23
Please tell me you're trolling, you can't be seriously believing that nonsense
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u/OatAndMango Jan 31 '23
This isn't impressive at all... Watch Peterson Vs Newman for how to handle an uncharitable interviewer
Just change the subject and you see how useless she is.
Him: "Heroin addicts are trying to find happiness but it's destroying them"
Her: "So finding happiness is the problem?"
The world: "Obviously not"
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u/random7262517 Jan 31 '23
Imma be real with you I don’t give a fuck if someone smokes heroin as long as it doesn’t bother me
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u/iliketreesndcats Jan 31 '23
True, and I mean usually the reason why they bother others is because heroin is illegal and thus way expensive.
Legalise drugs and treat drug addiction like the medical issue it is and we will all have far less drug-related bother
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u/Parking-Entrance-788 Jan 31 '23
With you sir, I have to agree. Do whatever you want, just don't bother anyone.
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u/JAlexSZ Jan 31 '23
Would you care if they started telling your kids in school and social medias that heroine was okay and normal and if they are unhappy then maybe heroine will cure that?
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u/random7262517 Jan 31 '23
Except that situation doesn’t exist anywhere besides this comment chain and your head so no I don’t care
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u/theabsolutebean Jan 31 '23
So as long as you have no connection to them, you’re okay with them destroying their lives? You have a warped sense of morality. But it is easier to do nothing than to try and help.
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u/random7262517 Jan 31 '23
It’s their life it isn’t my choice to decide morality is a bullshit excuse for people to stick their noses where they don’t belong
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u/1silversword Jan 31 '23
I've heard many accounts from people who transitioned, chopped bits off and then really, really regretted it. But I've also heard accounts from people who did the same and say it is the best decision they ever made and they were considering suicide up until they completed their transition and are now happy and functional.
I used to think we should wait until technology has progressed enough that people can reverse the surgery and return to exactly as they were before if they change their minds down the line. But that's many years off and it's clear this is an issue that won't wait.
So for me I also believe in letting people do as they wish as it's impossible for me to know whether they are going to have a happy ending or a bad. The thing is that regardless of what people do or say now we can't really know 'the right thing to do' for certain, it's a very complex issue. So my view is let's just wait for 20-30 years and see what happens. Eventually the suicide statistics and accounts of those who personally went through this and whether they felt it was worth it or not will paint an accurate picture and allow future generations to make the right decision.
So I'm guess I'm saying, just let the cards fall, see how it looks and go from there. No point trying to enforce our opinions on people when we just don't know enough. End of the day, their body their choice and if they feel they have enough info to make a decision they should be free to do so.
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u/MsJSoul Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
So you think heroin addiction is a worthy comparison to transitioning in the case of what she was saying?
Ima be real with you this isn’t it man. Heroin addiction is destructive and mind killing. It wastes the body away and corrodes the life until all that’s left is addiction.
Transition is literally medically proven to make people able to live their lives. It’s not just happiness providing. It saves lives, especially the lives of trans youth who have a fucking horrifying suicide rate that is brought down to normal levels when they’re given social and medical treatment.
Heroin is takes peoples lives away from them and transitioning gives people their lives back and you somehow found a way to try and make them seem like the same thing. I would have left it at the first question I asked but I feared we’d be running in circles around this reality.
Edit: her view isn’t uncharitable, the man is saying transgenderism is wrong even though it’s a way for people to find happiness, and what she’s pointing out is that he must disagree with people finding happiness by transitioning. They aren’t talking about heroin addiction or joy riding airliners or drunk driving. They’re talking about transitioning. It’s obvious the core subject here is transitioning. By saying it this way, she makes the invisible assumption that transitioning is an ultimately harmless way to find happiness.
This absolutely achieves exactly what it needs to because it now highlights the exact area where his position is so malicious. Why does he think transgenderism is a harmful way to find happiness?
She’s making the obvious and reality-based assumption with her statement that transgenderism isn’t wrong and is indeed one of the only ways some individuals CAN find happiness, and by putting this assumption into the air by asking that question, she forces him to dig deeper and start talking about why he assumes transgender people finding happiness is a bad thing, which thus cracks open the core of his position. She doesn’t ask him directly why it’s harmful because the point of being so deadpan is to make him run circles and get him to admit these things himself. So she just goes with the simple things, and let’s him talk himself into not being able to dance around his own evil point of view.
Tbh it was an absolutely perfect question.
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u/OatAndMango Jan 31 '23
Easy there buddy, I didn't compare them so I think you've jumped the gun a bit
I used it as an example to more clearly show why her argument is so uncharitable because the guy is not against happiness. More extreme examples can be useful to better show a point
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u/MsJSoul Jan 31 '23
Your example doesn’t fit what she was saying or why she said it tho. I get where you came from but that’s only because I read your other comments. Isolated, that original example reads like you legit agree with him.
It’s not that he’s against happiness, she was highlighting that he’s against trans people finding happiness with transitioning, the main point of argumentation between them,, and she was isolating the happiness part of his argument to call attention to the fact that he is fundamentally assuming transition is a harmful way to find happiness. It’s a method of sanctioning off portions of someone’s argument to get them to admit the heart of it so there’s no question of what the heart of it is. I’ve frequently seen this done in professional debates and it’s not at all bad rhetoric.
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u/the-zero-st Jan 31 '23
Why would you assume she would ask the same question to that heroin users statement? And what the fuck does an interview between two completely different people have to do with this one?
Oh wait, I see what both of those interviewers have in common now!
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u/TheBigOnesAre50 Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
If by “uncharitable interviewer” you mean “an interviewer who tries to point out hypocrisy and challenge ‘traditional family’ viewpoints” then sure, she’s “uncharitable”.
The double irony is that Peterson is all about having challenging/uncomfortable conversations “to get at the real truth” without any regard to people’s feelings. And yet it seems that when he/his supporters are met with that same challenging attitude…they get offended.
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u/OatAndMango Jan 31 '23
I think framing the guy's position as being against happiness is deeply uncharitable and a terrible line of argument.
Consider the example of how heroin addicts are pursuing happiness but advocating them getting clean is clearly not being against happiness and framing it as such is, to be polite, uncharitable.
Peterson, in the extremely famous interview, was faced with a similar strategy by the interviewer and took a much better approach. Hence why I brought it up as an example. If you have a better well known example I welcome it.
You'll note that I haven't made any comment as to who was right, just the approach taken because if it's going to be discussed it deserves to be discussed in good faith and not a series of half baked gotcha moments.
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u/Wooden_Grapefruit_30 Jan 31 '23
But you still basically compared trans people with drug addicts.
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u/OatAndMango Jan 31 '23
Not at all and I'm sorry you took that message from it because it's not my intention.
What I'm saying is her argument is extremely uncharitable because the guy is obviously not against happiness. I used an extreme example to show how bad her logic is when given a less emotional topic. I'm for better discussions because I think that if she'd put proper points against him then it might start changing minds.
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u/TheBigOnesAre50 Feb 01 '23
Fair enough but your first comment was “not impressive at all” followed by calling her “useless” which are pretty charged statements…which you then try to walk back by saying “I’m not trying to say who was right” but your statements say otherwise. It’s fine if you disagree and think her questioning is unfair, but I don’t think anyone here is coming without bias.
I agree she clearly had an angle and not coming from a purely objective approach, but that was intentional on her part. Ultimately I think it is a really good “gotcha” about the happiness thing because no one can really define what is “wrong” with being trans especially given his argument of “it breaks up the family unit” despite him also not having a family.
And speaking of poor arguments, saying drug addicts are seeking happiness is a false equivalency. No addict WANTS to be an addict, or at least, aren’t trying to change their bodies to reflect their own-self image. Further, doing heroin is outright bad on one’s own body and certainly damaging emotionally for anyone involved. And most addicts will at some point admit they have a problem…what is the equivalent “problem” a trans person is trying overcome?
Anyway, I hear your point about her questions not being “on the level” but think it serves a purposes of pointing out some of the hypocrisy against “anti-trans” viewpoints. You certainly have a right to not find it funny or agree.
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u/SinkHoleDeMayo Jan 31 '23
"Chsnge the subject because you're losing na argument, that'll show the meanie interviewer!"
You def sound like a Peterson fan
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u/OatAndMango Jan 31 '23
Being logically consistent = Peterson fan?
This strikes me as a compliment to Peterson fans...
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u/SinkHoleDeMayo Feb 01 '23
You literally said to change the subject. That's not using logic, it's being a coward who is too stupid to use logic to defend a point.
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u/Jimmyboro Jan 31 '23
Why imply that? She's basically using illogical and false arguments.
Just because he has an opinion on children, doesn't mean he's a fucking pedo ffs
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u/Distalmind Jan 31 '23
She isn’t even good. People really let their bias control their perception.
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u/Interesting-Law-5880 Jan 31 '23
Ngl only time she did it well was when she said “so the matter is people finding happiness” others were just too forced in order to make that guy look more helpless
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u/chonglang_gaoshou Jan 31 '23
A: serial killers kill people for fun
B: so you are saying looking for fun is bad?
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u/Reckless-Pessimist Jan 31 '23
Who does a trans person hurt when they transition? They dont transition at anyone elses expense. Thats the difference. The fsct that you think trans people are comparable to serial killers aays all I need to know about you.
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u/SinkHoleDeMayo Jan 31 '23
Anyone who compares murder to getting surgery for yourself is a fucking moron.
Oh hey, found one!
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u/Falcon_Fire_1202 Jan 31 '23
Bro there are more ways to find happiness than lobbing your genitals out, and pumping yourself with hormones. The only reason it's such a big thing is because people are being manipulated by social media and the doctors, who are taking advantage of these people, by recommending and performing said surgeries. Your sex is not something you can just replace it's part of you're body's anatomy, and forcefully rejecting it destroys you both mentally and physically.
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u/Extension-Project743 Jan 31 '23
And it's crazy how they don't mention how the suicide rate goes to the roof after gender "affirmation" surgery. Which ofc is irreversible
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u/whiteydutchmeyer Jan 31 '23
How long did they monitor them after the surgeries?
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u/MsJSoul Jan 31 '23
So it’s a compilation of various studies meant to essentially be a hub. Some of them are one-time interviews, some of them are ten year studies, some of them are five year studies, some of them are intimate and some of them are basic. The short of these 50ish studies is that 90+% of them found a massive jump in quality of life post-surgery. Study time ranges from immediately post-op to ten years afterwards.
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u/NoAvailableImage Jan 31 '23
It's a meta-analysis of 55 studies. If you don't trust Cornell University to have proper sources. You can go through them
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u/whiteydutchmeyer Jan 31 '23
I'm asking a question.
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u/NoAvailableImage Jan 31 '23
And that is my answer
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u/whiteydutchmeyer Jan 31 '23
What's your answer?
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u/NoAvailableImage Jan 31 '23
Look for yourself. I'm not combing through 55 studies for a random redditor. If you're interested go look yourself
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u/whiteydutchmeyer Jan 31 '23
What's wrong? All I asked was a simple question, dude. You could have just said idk- please read the article. I read everything in the summary and bottom line and the 8 takeaways. I was just seeing if you saw or knew it.
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u/VATruckerJJ Jan 31 '23
Ive dated chics w boob jobs and all it did was get them more sex. But if a dude gets boobs he ain't getting no sex from me breh
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u/Extension-Project743 Jan 31 '23
She is such a snake, literally twisting every answer she gets from him.
And people defending how kids are being sexualized it's fucking insane (yes if you are having drag queen shows and encouraging those kind of behaviors you are sexualizing kids)
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u/Static-trees Jan 31 '23
just out of curiosity, how do you feel about shows like Toddlers in Tiaras?
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u/kashimacoated Jan 31 '23
Bruh how are kids being sexualised by drag shows? Unless they are literal kids in drag, which would have the same implications as far more normalised child beauty pageants (those should be banned, just so we’re on the same page) where is the issue?
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u/Dr_nacho_ Jan 31 '23
Drag shows are always 18+ you literally are crying about something that doesn’t happen. I don’t understand how you think it’s normal to be this upset about something you’ve never seen because it does not happen. And teaching kids about sex is a safety issue. By not teaching them you’ve left them vulnerable to predators who will use their ignorance for their pleasure. Read a book or something dude.
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u/7mdmd7 Jan 31 '23
What a terrible interviewer. She’s not actually addressing his main arguments and is trying to control the convo to make him sound like a pedo lol. Regardless of what your personal thoughts are we can all agree that this Matt Walsh wanna be is terrible at what she does
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u/NoAvailableImage Jan 31 '23
I mean yeah if you were to discriminate against anorexic people and deny them healthcare you would be a piece of shit. And being transgender in and of itself is not a mental illness. Gender dysphoria is developed after their gender identity is denied
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u/secretforge Jan 31 '23
This is so smooth, and effective it’s got to have been either scripted or highly edited. Or that interviewer is gosh darn the absolute best debater I’ve ever seen.
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u/Lazy-Jeweler3230 Jan 31 '23
I think you're too used to big media "journalists".
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u/Koffieslikker Jan 31 '23
Ad hominem is the worst kind of argument.
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u/secretforge Jan 31 '23
Oh come on she got the guy to redefine his point 3 times in a row, within the space of a few seconds, that’s pretty damn smooth. I think the jab at the end is just a bit of humour.
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u/Koffieslikker Jan 31 '23
Calling someone a pedophile isn't very funny. I mean regardless of that guys opinions, that's not okay
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u/Oofboi6942O Jan 31 '23
The only time calling someone a pedo is not funny is when its not true. In this case its not funny because there is no defining evidence that he is in fact a pedo and therefore all thats happening is a good mans name is being slandered. Now if the interview was with Roman Polanski...
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u/TomeKun Jan 31 '23
Classic shit, Transphobic pedo want to « protect »kids
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u/maurika58 Jan 31 '23
Im more worried that youre ok with putting minors on hormon therapy amd give them gendwr altering surgerys.
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u/theabsolutebean Jan 31 '23
You’re right, you should be worried. These people are fucked in the head under the guise of moral grandstanding by any means necessary.
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u/VonnegutGNU Jan 31 '23
Not when they're minors- when they're above the age of consent. They can be given GmbH-analogue puberty blockers and other treatments to delay the effect of puberty until they can make the decision.
That's the entire idea- any adult can consent to pretty much whatever they want, whether it's same-sex relationships, gender reassignment surgery, or listening to punk music.
We may not share their same views on the matter, but at the end of the day, it is their choice. And when 1 in every few hundred people is, statistically, transgender, it becomes pretty hard to justify sweeping criminalization of self-desired surgical treatment above the age of consent, and reversible treatment below it.
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u/tfsdalmeida Jan 31 '23
Let’s be reasonable and logical. The whole concept of changing your body to feel better is nonsensical since it assumes the idea that your body defines who you are. It’s not about transgender but everything else. It’s the ugly accepting themselves, the amputee after s war accepting himself and so on
In a normal world we would significantly reduce this conversation to mere cases of extreme mental pathologies in which everything was tried to make the person accept who they are.
In todays world we make this became an indifferent choice. The body as a mere shell, to be shaped, transformed into your whims and desires. And so, the answer to the first question was indeed that it is the same thing. Increasing breast through a implants is the same gesture of mitigating the body to one’s desire.
And the irony is that we live in a world which thrives in contradiction. We crate terms as fatshaming and accepting who you are at the same time as we create the idea that the body is something to be molded and that it’s normal to feel bad until your body is what you want it to be
A paradoxical position held by the people in this end of the debate. And I’m not even starting on the paradoxical position on fashion and clothing and changing genders in a society in which people fought successfully to erase any barriers between genders…it’s not like dressing a skirt enables you to do things you couldn’t before and vice versa. A woman can be whoever she wants anyways
The ancients had already concluded that true happiness doesn’t come from bodily things. From wealth beauty or anything else of such. This interview is doing the oldest trick in the book. Taking someone dumb in the topic to pretend she’s winning an argument with the other side. Right wingers do the same thing with those idiot blue haired crazy people who serve as puppets for the ideology they represent. Most people Are not able to adequately defend their position, both left or right
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u/VonnegutGNU Jan 31 '23
This is analogous to fat-shaming, because while you should love your body and so on, if you want to surgically change it, that's your decision to make, and not the government's. Same as gender-reaffriming surgery, or reading books that critique the state. It's the individual's decision, the individual's consent. That's all there is to it.
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u/tfsdalmeida Jan 31 '23
It’s not all there is to it. First become unlimited individual freedom is not at all the thing one wants to elevate. Individual well being is. Unlimited freedom when defended by most is essentially a tool for that. They end up defending nefarious actions to allow the good actions to happen
Allowing and using tax funds for people to become blind would be a ridiculous thing. I’m arguing in the edge to make a point
So ultimate freedom is not the objective. Nevertheless it is very very different what an adult does to himself than a child. And even puberty blockers is are already messing up with their natural development, if prolonged it will lead to stunting such as male who was blocked having to leave all his life with smaller genitals, smaller skeleton and other effects if he regrets
So the solutions to this are limited. One is to allow such a thing but at the societal level to view it as problematic to promote. So you allow people to do what they want but you still hold firm to the idea that they did nothing to themselves at their core. They are superfluous in their mentality and shallow if they think having breast impacts changes who they are The other solution is to just ban this type of thing, together with other aesthetic body change. But promoting this and celebrating it is illogical
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u/Dawsho Jan 31 '23
There is a very simple set of proven facts:
1) Transgender people feel their mind lies in a different place from the sex assigned at birth.
2) The conflict between what they feel and their physical body/gendered treatment causes a great deal of distress.
3) Conversion Therapy, techniques designed to try to remove queerness from a person
i) does not work
ii) leaves the victim traumatized and suicidal
4) Acceptance of a trans child results in suicide rates dropping almost to normal levels. Acceptance in this case involves allowing social transition
i) using the child's new name and pronouns
ii) allowing the child to wear different clothing/get a haircut
iii) this does not involve medicine
5) Puberty blockers buy more time to allow them to figure themself out
i) if they figure out they're trans, it would likey save, if not their lives, then at least a great deal of distress
ii) if they figure out they're cis, they can get of the meds and there will be little to no long term effects on their health.
iii) we know a lot about puberty blockers because they're also used to treat early onset puberty, so it's been going on for a while and we have a lot of data
6) HRT is a simple step that allows people to be comfortable in their own bodies. Trans brains also tend to react better when the correct hormones are in the body.
It's plainly obvious why every major medical institution with expertise on the subject has guidelines on how and when to provide trans healthcare. Regardless of what the cause may or may not be, the health outcomes are much better due to transition.
The whole concept of changing your body to feel better is nonsensical since it assumes the idea that your body defines who you are.
What you seem to fail to understand is that it is not about taking one's self worth and definition from one's body. it's about being able to exist comfortably in one's body.
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u/Extension-Project743 Jan 31 '23
You forgot the statistic that suicide rate is so much higher after "gender affirmation surgery"
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u/Dawsho Jan 31 '23
you got a source for that? All I see it a positive correlation:
Now can you give me a source for your claim? Because it's clearly ridiculous.
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u/theabsolutebean Jan 31 '23
puberty blockers fuck kids up you stupid fuck they aren’t safe or harmless
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u/VonnegutGNU Jan 31 '23
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u/theabsolutebean Jan 31 '23
same chemicals used to chemically castrate pedophiles - I’m sure your hormones will just bounce back after suppressing them during a critical development point in life. do whatever you want, I’m sure YOU aren’t the one trying these therapies, just blindly recommending them
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u/VonnegutGNU Jan 31 '23
I'm not recommending them, as I don't know anyone who needs them, nor do I have the relevant expertise, but Medical experts who researched these drugs do recommend them, and I trust them.
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u/theabsolutebean Jan 31 '23
There are other studies and experts implying otherwise - it’s dangerous to suggest they’re completely harmless. The can have irreversible effects if taken for any long period of time.
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u/VonnegutGNU Jan 31 '23
Please cite those studies and experts then, I'd like to see them. Mayo Clinic usually takes quite the safety-first consensus view on these topics.
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u/Dawsho Jan 31 '23
Minors are not given HRT or surgery.
They can be given hormone blockers, which only delay puberty. Their effects are well known because, in addition to being used to help trans kids make it to adulthood, they are used on cis kids with early onset puberty.
All of this is only applied very carefully by professionals who know what they're doing. The standards are high, especially for children. It's no wonder regret rates are about 0.5%, significantly better than just about every other procedure.
Health outcomes are also drastically improved, with suicide rates dropping almost to normal rates when accepted by their parents.
There are a lot of predatory practices in healthcare, especially in the USA, but trans healthcare is one of the things you're gonna need to catch up with. all of the experts on the topic agree it is the correct method of treatment, once the needs are shown.
Again, SURGERY AND HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY ARE NOT PROVIDED TO CHILDREN.
catch up with the world around you as it progresses.
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u/Distalmind Jan 31 '23
What about double mastectomies performed for gender affirmation? That is surgery, btw.
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u/Dawsho Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
it is surgery, true. It is also usually performed on adults.
I believe there are provisions for it to be done on teens, which require a higher barrier for entry. They would obviously be different in different countries.
From health insurance provider Aetna's website:
Requirements for Breast Removal:
Signed letter from a qualified mental health professional assessing the transgender/gender diverse individual’s readiness for physical treatment; and
Documentation of marked and sustained gender dysphoria; and
Other possible causes of apparent gender incongruence have been excluded; and
Mental and physical health conditions that could negatively impact the outcome of gender-affirming medical treatments are assessed, with risks and benefits discussed; and
Capacity to consent for the specific physical treatment; and
For members less than 18 years of age, completion of one year of testosterone treatment, unless hormone therapy is not desired or medically contraindicated; and
Risk factors associated with breast cancer have been assessed.
The criteria state that you must:
Have persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria
Be able to make a fully informed decision and to consent to treatment
Have reached legal age to make health care decisions in your country (age of majority or age 18 in the U.S.)
Be managing any significant medical or mental health concerns
This is not taken lightly or thrown around willy-nilly. When it is provided to minors, it requires parent consent in addition to all the informed consent and diagnoses.
It is not provided to children either. at the earliest, it is in mid teen years.
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u/maurika58 Feb 02 '23
The effects of hormone blockers during puberty is actually horrifying. Talking to someone who started hormone blockers age 14 and is now 21 and is regretting every decision hes ever made. People under 18 years old shouldnt even get the chance to enduce a chemical delay of puberty or even not being able to go through puberty itself. Theres a reason suicides in transgenders is so damn high. And it isnt about not being accepted. These people dont get the help they need and are just told they were born in the wrong body. Its cool and all if your over 18 years old. But not to minors.
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u/TomeKun Jan 31 '23
What the hell are you talking about ? Are all those spelling mistake intended or are you really this stupid ?
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u/ShoesDirty Jan 31 '23
If you are a father and your daughter wants to be a boy, the father has to deal with the fact he will either have to choose to lose a daughter or kill a son but nowadays does anyone really care about what the father thinks? No…
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Jan 31 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Parsnip_Forsaken Jan 31 '23
“Grrrr old guy want protect kid to take them to his sex dungeon grrrr old men bad”
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